I am directly aiming my critique at the Bastion and what using it entails, moving away from the bastion as the center of the topic and saying that not using it is an alternative solution is missing the point and as it happens, not true.
Bastion will be mandatory, the mobility of Marauders among other things is already being nerfed, so choices are in fact being limited.
Anyone planning not to use the Bastion will find any faction/pirate ship will easily outperform Marauders; Marauders are deliberately being designed around the Bastion and you will have a hard time not using it because of the costs in the balancing.

Additionally, my gripe with the Bastion is not the idea that it isn't usable for at least something like gimmick PvP, it is that the module has severe flaws and it should be abolished as it currently is being presented, more so due to the fact it presents no actual interesting or fun mechanics to speak of when speaking of following the Marauder role.

Immunities:

Conditional immunities ignore the very idea of having established mechanics which exist have any effect on the results, which means you have balanced E-war for the whole game but then decide to circumvent this mechanic by a simple conditional rule which states, here the rules don't apply, effectively creating a second rule, every immunity is another rule and exception added to the first.

Would you support missiles which always applied full damage through a conditional and ignored signature radius/exp velocity? No you wouldn't, exact same thing, the proper way to do it is to follow mechanics in a relatively reasonable manner.

If in this case E-war is too powerful then rebalance it, revisit the mechanics and alter them to function as intended, just do not create new ways to avoid the problems.

E-war immunity ignores the sandbox mechanics for E-war, which is a use for sensor strength to determine efficiency, if there was a legit suggestion they would give Marauders a relatively high sensor strength in Bastion and not just outright cut them out from the sandbox in that specific area; Sandbox mechanics rely on the fact that they apply without selective interpretation causing meta rule sets, effectively destroying the whole concept in the process.



RR/assistance lockout ignores the idea of partaking in more complex parts of multiplayer gaming, it is a counterproductive limitation at best, promoting locked out solo play is out of touch with the whole concept of MMOs regardless of the fact if it is ignoring how RR works with mere conditionals.




Again, if you won't be using Bastion then you'll be better off in other ships by default, there is no choice between having the Bastion module or not, it is a choice between Bastion Marauder and Pirate Battleship, the live Marauders will no longer exist.

If you're even remotely interested in fluent mobility and kiting you will pick a Pirate Battleship.

The only choice you are getting with Bastion is, will I deploy here and die or win?

You are getting this one choice to substitute all the mobile intricacies of EVE combat, E-war threats and even quite simply the consequences of taking damage in many situations, successful tanking of damage becoming a guarantee rather than an active process of skill to manage a capacitor and avoid excess damage in multitudes of ways

The Ignoring of the whole concept of support in terms of remote assistance in situations where you should have need for it is one of the greatest flaws in Bastion design, when you are deployed.

It literally defines the idea of picking the worst of all possible scenarios into one module currently.


The Bastion undeniably promotes poor play styles, it throws every common sense defensive or offensive maneuver/adjustment out of the window and simplifies everything.

Pretty sure if I was fighting a space pinata I'd tackle it straight away knowing it's going to have an MJD.

I am getting really angry if someone still is saying the vargur becomes better in damage application because of increased fall off.

I fitted my macha and my vargur on sisi:

Macha:

1154 DPS (with sentries 1343 DPS)
540 m/s
4,1 + 61 km opti + fall off

Way of increasing Damage: Afterburner on and keep distance beneath 30km = >909,0 Gun DPS

Vargur:

1082 DPS (with sentries 1176 DPS)
312 m/s
4,1 + 69 km opti + fall off (5,4 +74 within Bastion)

Way of increasing Damage: Jump into fleet, switch on bastion fight distance 40-50 km (average 45) = 792,5 Gun DPS

And thats without drones.

If the actual 25% bonus would not stack vargur would end up with: 69km*1,25= 86,25 km --> 825,5 Gun DPS
WOW 32 DPS more, thats less than a bouncer.


Somehow the advantage of bastion for optimal fighters has no point for vargur. compared to "easy skill" pirate ships they are out maneuvered and out gunned

Then i wish you a lot of fun with serpentis orbiting you at 50 km. You know what happens when you jum to them with your MJD?

Try it. it will surprise you

Max fall off is 50% damage. thats why an increase of 10 km has nearly no effect on applied dps. autocannons kill beneath 30 km to stay over the 75% damage barrier

And nope: 3 TCII with bastion gives you such a huge malus that nearly nothing is increased

If that is an improvement for you, you are fitting your Vargur wrong. Just saying.

Personally, I use 2 TE+2TC+3Gyro for practically everything except Smash the Supplier. Activating bastion gives < 5 percentage points more falloff, if I remember correctly. But that does not necessarily free up any slots, since I can't switch the bastion bonus to tracking like I can with the comps.

The bastion bonus to optimal range is 5 pct points above a scripted cormack meta 14 tc, yet the falloff bonus is 5 pct points below a scripted t2 tc. And the devs are worried about a pulse/scorch-paladin. Oh my, where does that come from, let's try to spot the problem!

My remark was in the context of ACs. Nothing wrong with an Arty fit if one prefers it.

haha you wish '-)

Something else occurred to me. CCP said something about not needing the web bonus because you'll be able to MJD away and then pick off the targets. My numbers may be in off but here it goes:

Warp to grid enemies 50k-ish away
Lock targets small ships take 30-ish seconds
MJD away they are now 150k away wait till they are 108k (Kronos Targeting range)
Wait 30-ish seconds, frigs are now much closer
Pick off frigs, some get closer
MJD again they are again out of lock range
Retarget frigs pick off frigs
ect.

So now you are sitting a few hundred Km away from where you started and there is a gate, which was already 50k from warp in. So now you MJD once wait for cool down and then slow boat the rest of the way to the gate with the new and improved nerfed speed.

Throw in bastion mode and you'll be wasting even more time.

Does this really sound good to anyone...?

Edit: And if you are going to tell me to use drones then apparently you haven't use them recently. I lose a few drones every time I use them. Even being supper vigilant. They've almost become a non options. Only for use in dire situations.

Hmm, well I have trouble hitting drones once they are inside of 30k with any 425mm rails on any ships. I try and kill them before they get within 40k which doesn't always happen either. I am unsure how you are managing at 15k as that has not be my experience. I'll accept that you do.

Blasters.

Your rails should still be effective down to 15 to 20k if you burn away from the frigs and force them to follow.

To a point. I didn't want to explain all the tactics I use while running missions but I'll attempt to get most of them in real quick.

I always kill frigs first I try and go for those that might web or scramble me first. Depending on the mission I might burn away like smash the supplier. Where I accept I won't be able to salvage a lot of the wrecks while running the mission. In others I try and stay close enough to the wrecks to tractor and salvage. With the new T2 tractor beams that is within 48k. Because I am attempting to say close to the wrecks I use ammo that puts my optimal around that. IIRC I've been using plutonium(45 optimal) more recently. Before I used Uranium(56 optimal). There are a number of serp missions where there is a massive amount of small ships, mostly frigs, destroyers, and cruisers. These missions I will head in the opposite direction. My goal is to clear and salvage at the same time. This way when I am done popping the ships there usually is only a few wrecks left to be salvage.

When it comes to fitting I don't use a (lot of: was trying to say I don't waste lows on unnecessary tank) lows for tank, DCUII, LAR, 2 Omni tank mods and 3 damage mods. mids is a MWD, Weber, 2 Cap Rechargers.

With this I don't have to refit for new missions, and its very effective (quick). Its not cap stable but its close. I absolute love this setup and I really don't want it to change. This is why I am against anything that is going to alter how I use it. I spent years training for this ship and spent a lot of time getting the funds together.

Edit: typo's

[Vargur, Tech2]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
X-Large Shield Booster II
100MN Afterburner II

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot] <-- Bastion

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I

Warrior II x5
Bouncer II x2

---

[Machariel, New Setup 1 copy 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
100MN Afterburner II
Pith A-Type Explosive Deflection Field
Pith C-Type Kinetic Deflection Field
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

Bouncer II x4
Warrior II x5




While the Vargur becomes a lot more unattractive to gankers it stays weaker in pure DPS output and through bastion it ends up in less applied damage.

old summary of mine:

Its not ment to out damage the pirate ship

Well nope. Scorch is the only thing that keeps peoples from abandoning amarr. Don't forget that for good DPS and range You pay with cap consumption, tracking and damage type compared to other races.

Someone here suggest to buff falloff ranges in bastion, that's a good idea.

What an idiotic comment. I skilled to my marauders, golem and vargur, from the beginning. I use a tractor beam only if i need a mission objective. If i want to loot i use a dedicated alt-char with a noctis simultaneously.

I like to fly into enemies and do massive damage. Your proposed fittings with reduced tank and bastion forces me to change the style I like and to negate close range high dps.

Are you even reading the other posts. its not a MWD its an afterburner. and it is not overtanked because i am on the move and not in bastion. And gist booster are a reason to gank me again.

Finally you get it. Why fly a vargur if a low skill pirate BS with the same price does everything better?

Now i am trying a 1400 fit on sisi. it is quite acceptable but the 101km lockrange in combination with MJD and the necessary anc rig makes it somehow hard to use full potential.

The problems lay in scorch and barrage, there is no question about it, CCP knows it, most players suspect it, you know it.

We've even experienced a TE nerf largely because of barrage and I dare say much crying about projectile ships are directly related to it; The reason beams are less popular is because of scorch, there is little reason to fit beams, beams are less versatile and forgiving than pulse with scorch, which invalidates the whole idea of beams to a significant degree, artillery at least has alpha as a defining trait.

We're now close in experiencing a similar effect in the range bonus in bastion being stacking penalized just because of short range weaponry easily hitting at long ranges, the ammo used when CCP decided this? Lets all take a wild guess.

Until the ammo is balanced everything else will keep getting nerfed and moaned about, often without the complaints even recognizing the problem being in the ammunition, instead directing proposed nerfs to hull bonuses and other factors if possible, screaming how 'OP' autocannons are, possibly resulting in nerfing TE's even further.

You and others saying the problem doesn't lay in the ammunition makes it all worse, the longer the ammo remains as is the more erroneous balancing choices will go through the cracks, effectively eliminating all other ammunition as anything viable in the end.
The ammunition are used in every balancing situation involving guns, we're not gaining anything good from keeping them as they are currently, let alone from denying the problem to begin with.

Thats the whole point, to build-in ship bonus into Golem that will replace target painter, so u will have same efficency but without need of wasting additional med slot for non-tanking module.

Maybe its a bit hard to understand if someone is not using Golem, but lets make TP a low slot module and change tracking bonuses on other ships to target painting efficency, and u will see amount of rage from players that need to drop EANM or other hardener for this to make your ship usefull.

Are you even reading the other posts. its not a MWD its an afterburner. and it is not overtanked because i am on the move and not in bastion. And gist booster are a reason to gank me again.

How fast u will gonna make a typical L4 missions that have 2 gates each at 60km from warping point with bastion module ON (which prevents you from moving)?. And why i am asking about L4 missions? Because probably 95% of marauders, at least Golems, are used for PVE.

Bastion module have no point in most PVE situations, since u need to move to another warpgate and shoot in same time, to make it worthwhile. Ability to sit and tank with 2 mods then wasting 10 minutes to get to other warpgate is rather pointless idea and will take alot more time than doing same thing with bastion module off.

Every marauders can use target painters with same efficency as golem since golem torpedoes got higher base torpedo radius than turrets, so if TP would be OP on golem, then it would be OP on any other marauder.

Not to mention fact that missiles have no falloff and stationary ship that uses close range missiles can be killed very easily. Just put your orbit at 1km higher than torpedo range, and Golem wont make any damage to anyone. Can u avoid damage on any other marauders like that? NO.

Whats the point of mjd if warpgate is at half of mjd range?, u will jump it over and end on other side as far as u was before. learn math mate

Besides half missions got npcs between your warpingpoint and warpgate, and some got npcs at warpgate, so juimping around in random directions wont help at all.

While I was flying vargur that style your account wasn't even created. Please go to TQ and try it. Blitzing lvl4s with a fast vargur gives me more ISK then doing a combination of ratting and salvaging. Also, my loot goes mostly to a new char who earns quite some ISK by salvaging my missions.

Thats the biggest reason i am flying highsec lvl4s. To help newbies getting standing and earning some ISK.

0.0 gives me something between 28-40 mio tics without salvaging.

Im not missing it, its just that this doesnt change anything. U can orbit torpedo ship without tank 1 meter beyond his optimal and he wont harm u even with 10000% damage bonus. Same thing if u are fast - u can outrun torpedoes, many ways of dealing with them.

Npcs doesnt do such things thats why Golem is mainly a hisec pve ship and things like mjd or bastion module which preventing you from moving to other gate are preety much useless here. As of 0.0 pve, roamers will love u for warping your marauder to anom and making yourself stationary.

Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin.
I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's.
With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.

Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.

But I was going to be in that site much longer than that, since my small drones were getting chewed up because the AI was recognizing that the guns were doing **** damage to Tama's, compared to the drones, and attacked my drones. And why were the guns doing such **** damage? Because the unbonused webs could not slow them down enough.

Yeah, Yitterbum's "internal testing" yielded a far different meaning of the word "effective" than my actual tests on Sisi.

But doing triangulation would still be slower than traveling those same 60km for example on a vargur with deadspace ABurner.

It is ~82 seconds for a gate @60km. Because, with ab/mwd or slowboating, you only need to go distance minus 2,5 km in order to activate the gate.

- You HAVE TO complete triangulation cycle for mjd in order to get your target, which is 88 seconds fixed at this example, even for a gate that is 20km away (considering perfect triangulation every time).
- In a chance of miss triangulation (which will be pretty common), you HAVE TO slowboat to the gate.
- Missions perspective, there are very rare 60km-away Gates from entry, most of them are located 10 - 40km in missions.

To summerize, anything closer than 61,6 km from you, will be faster with AB (with 700m/s on this example).

I really wish Bastion was an offensive module.

havent been on testserver myself but from this i conclude you cant rotate (align) while in bastion mode?

...if so that would be sad and should be changed

Please entertain this suggestion:

Bastion:

Increases shield and armor repair amount by 37.5%

Increases all shields, armor and hull resistances by 30%

Increases shield and armor HP by 50%

Increases capacitor regeneration by 20%

Increases capacitor amount by 20%

Increases sensor strength by 50%. No E-war immunity.

Suffers a penalty on all remote assistance by 50%.

-The extremely effective active tanking was instead moved to a more reliable and durable tanking model.
-The bastion now functions as a panic button, raising both capacitor and buffer at the moment of activation.
-E-war immunity was removed to allow a less absolute solution, although still quite resilient.
-The RA lockout was removed, instead an effectiveness reduction was introduced to allow the support of advanced fleet actions and player interaction in a more complex manner. I did not remove the penalty fully because I do not believe CCP is prepared to accept to go that far.
-The range bonuses were moved to the hulls as to not cause an artificial need to enter bastion to get the extra range and thus create an excessive immobility for Marauders; Bastion should remain a situational defensive module and not drag down the ships mobility because of being superior for all roles applicable at the same time.


Marauder

As marauders crave flexibility I added this gem of a feature, I proposed this previously, I'm really fond of it.

A marauder has the option of fitting extra offline module alternatives and put them online in space, they can fit 8H/ 8M/ 8L total slots in the hangar of which some will be offline; Only the use of a predefined number of modules at the same time in space is allowed, Vargur has 7H /6M /5L, thus its secondary offline modules possible to fit/online would be 1H /2M / 3L.

The ship:
-Noteworthy is the heat damage bonus, I find this is warranted on Marauders to follow their high quality mark and the longevity of them; It is an excellent PvP bonus and a decent PvE panic feature as well, all round useful and fits Marauders very nicely.
-I kept the low speed of the Vargur because I got the distinct feeling CCP won't raise it further, so the design relies on the original feature of the MJD.
-I raised the drone bay a bit to allow more flights and even one or two flights of medium drones, I see little issue with larger drone bays on Marauder, especially given their role.
-There are two launcher slots, those are to follow the general design of Minmatar ships, especially the Tempest, the option should be there; It provides very little raw dps so that is not a problem as such, it merely allows options.
-The range bonuses do not suffer stacking penalties, if a problem exists with short range weaponry reaching too far then rebalance Barrage, artillery uses falloff just the same and should not be penalized because of this.

VARGUR

Role bonus:
100% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage.
70% Reduction in Jump Drive reactivation delay.
150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams
50% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules.(new)
25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret optimal range.(moved from bastion)
25% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff.(moved from bastion)

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire per level.
10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level.

Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level.
7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level.

Slot layout: 7H(8), 6M(8), 5L(8); 4 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 12900 PWG, 625 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8500 / 8200 / 8200
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110m/s / ? / 96520000/ ~16.0s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 200
Sensor strength: 28 Ladar

I ask again, since it is consistently ignored, is it to much to ask for to keep the current marauders ingame(or actually fix them) as a separate hull?


The active tanking focus isn't that useful:

- In incs it is useless, same as bastion is(marauders spider tank, the hole active tanking idea only comes for people that are not used to fly Incs with marauders), same goes to RR based groups in WH
- single boxing L4 it is hardly useful(I 2-3 slot tank them already), multi boxing them I take close to zero damage anyway, and sitting around 60s is hilarious bad once you manage to apply 150k+ damage in this time frame

Web and projection bonuses are far more handy then tank most of the time(axe the active tanking bonus for another projection bonus):
- both in pvp and pve, the web bonus is actually extreme useful for people that know how to utilize it
- Rail Kronos with 125/275 and the sentry tracking/optimal bonus would bring the Kronos finaly to competitive dps levels
- high mwd speed plus optimal bonus and a bigger drone bay makes the Vargur a impressive artillery/sentry platform
- a lot more speed and a explosion velocity bonus on the golem making it finally useful with torps again
- optimal or tracking bonus on the pala(the optimal is a bit to strong in my opinion, but suit yourself).

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?13247-Marauders

I think it is not to much to ask to actually give people that fly marauders a bit more serious still a reason to use them.

don't do it. boring. because of the four guns you have to shoot all 4 individually.

This is my fitting.

Gun DPS 936.6 Quake, max skills
Drone DPS 158.4 Hammerhead II
Total DPS 1095

Works well, but has terribad tracking and the worst DPS from any marauder. Also, implants and some miracles.

In Lv4s Vargur gains pretty much nothing with these changes.

1. Ewar immunity doesn't matter in Minmatar space.

2. Assuming that you have 2 optimal scripted TCs fitted, bastion only gives approximately 10km extra falloff. If you are not in bastion mode 1 MWD cycle is plenty to offset this bonus. Which means if we don't count the first 10-15 seconds, a freely moving Vargur does more damage.

3. Extra tank is unnecessary.

Basically the only reason I can see to fit a bastion module is to free up a mid slot for the MJD, which may come useful in some missions.

4. The Vargur's speed got a massive nerf. This makes closing the distance to targets slower, decreasing applied DPS.

So I have 3 suggestions.

1. Bastion really needs a 50% falloff bonus. This way bastion would give an extra 25km falloff which would be mostly ok.

2. Make Bastion a mid slot module (I know it is not in line with Triage and Siege, but I couldn't care less), remove the extra high slot, and an extra mid. This would allow for much more diverse setups. And it would make Marauders better in all roles, where using a bastion module is not practical.

3. Give some or all of the speed back.

Since you tested it, what would you say about projectile ranges with Bastion vs without? For that matter, what sort of guns did you use and which ammo type(s)?

The purpose of the post is to reflect that w/ general mission running, outside of the original advantages I have spoken about again and again including in the very first post you replied to (ewar, rare needs for MJD < 3mins) that the ship has taken an overall nerf.

I am glad that you see the advantages in mobility, and that when it comes to mobile vs bastionedcombat that the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur.

The point related to drones was not a blunder, and serves to indicate that even in immobile vs bastioned combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi marauder due to the drone bandwidth. Remember that original 36dps was estimated at a range of 40km. (all lvl V) an unbonused bouncer II(i.e. difference in bandwidth) deals around ~48dps to BS moving in a perfect 40km orbit around the stationary vargur. Assuming the same BS is on the approach, its ~53 dps. You dont waste time scooping if you arent moving. In immobile combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur

In summary:
TQ vs SISI vargurs in general lvl 4 combat outside of its few niche uses which I have on many occasions mentioned:
mobile vs mobile = winner TQ
mobile vs bastioned = winner TQ
immobile vs bastioned = winner TQ

The vargur has been nerfed.

Well, Paladin, Kronos OR Vargur will absolutely _murder_ this mission with bastion:

Warp in @0 -> Bastion -> Shoot triggers -> Warp out , even with "just average" skills the completion time will be sub 5 minutes, I can actually do it in ~3 with a bastioned rail kronos

Sure you miss out bounties etc, but you don't do it for the ISK, you do it for LP.

Common guys, the topic has changed.

We're on the new tractor structure now, lol...

the only point you have made is that u are able to complete missions in a vargur. Gratz? What point r u trying to make exactly?

Quick vargur summary for 4s
Rubicon vargur bastion fit great for high jam/damp

Rubicon vargur mjd bonus good for rare instances that require a jump more than once every 3 mins but could not otherwise be done with another form of prop.

A tq fit Rubicon vargur is better outside of these 2 instances because of mobility and stacking penalties

There is simply no point in this post other than paper numbers. I'm an all-time Vargur pilot. I simply disregard this post.
Telling "Rubicon Marauder is just plain better in every situation " is as same as telling you've not been playing Vargur in TQ for some time. If you've been playing with this ship long enough, you'd see there is no point telling any of the nerfs aren't worth that much.

At this point I'd like to ask these three most simple questions to you:
- (Point of little/no difference) Exactly what benefit you get for missioning (properly, including salvaging) in Rubicon Vargur against TQ Vargur, from the perspective of both ISK/hr and enjoyment?
- (Point of nothing new) What is different from playing Sentry Dominix, with the proposed Vargur? Enemy ewar won't land you properly when you're 100km away anyway.
- (Point of enjoyment) What makes you so happy with the Rubicon Marauder? Sniping? Or Sitting and bashing?

Oh man...
GÇó The "bling" is in the ship itself, ie: the $1-billion hull, skill books, training, etc. I can build "bling" a Raven for less than the sticker price of a Golem.
GÇó Marginally slower? When a Scorpion starts lapping your Golem that's usually a subtle hint.
GÇó Tracking or range... You mean the the 3rd rig slot T1 or Faction battleship hulls have? Or the extra low or mid slot for a wide assortment of options?

now this fit right here is terrible. No wonder people have turned to ganking mission runners you barely have to spend any money to blow this thing out of space and take his stuff

lol why the heck would i use a tornado? few catalysts work just fine

i just chose a destroyer you numbskull. The Minmitar one would work just fin as well. And with that tank it would be easy to just have a cloaky warp in and go in when his shields with be at their lowest from the ratts considering that won't be hard with those resists. you obviously know nothing.

Anize Oramara

You have yet to post numbers for TQ why are you responding to anything else without them?

You have yet to demonstrate the validity of anything you are saying.

@Anize Oramara

I mean "A" dessie as in i picked one at random you prick. And you use the cloaky to wait for the biggest spawn in the mission then you jump him because the rats do play a factor. Not sure why in your mind they don't. Then again idiots like yourself apparently don't think of all factors.

And I'm not sure why you think I'm only talking about this ship. i simply stated those fits are why people kill expensive ships in general but then again you seem to not be able to read very well

Hey. lets just convince CCP to allow us to attach a tractor beam to _that_ structure, so we can drag it and act as a driftnet

EDIT: In the next few comments past that one I found my idea was not original after all ...

I'd like to ask a question to experienced golem users aka not me. Pls take this with a grain of salt as I do not claim to know the golem by any means.

It would appear from other posts that the torp golem has been overshadowed to some extent bc of cruise missile changes and the golem's mobility changes, or at the very least, the cruise golem has been made more viable.

My question relates to the synergy of target painters, bastion, and the range of cruise missiles in lvl 4s. It is my understanding that the further you are from a target, the higher the chance your tp will not have an effect.

If this is the case, would it be a fair assessment to say that if the extra range given by the bastion mod is used, the effective dps goes down, and that the tp bonus doesnt synergize with bastion well?

Speaking of, had any WH dweller commented on marauders' performance out there? I'm genuinely curious.

Test in sisi, they blow up in between repair cycles (at least the armor tanked ones) when you get bad luck timed bursts of damage.


IF they had a much larger EHP pool, then they might indeed have a role in wormhoels as solo site runners.

For one, I thank you for the voice. On the other hand, no offense intended, I asked about results of actual testing. When talking about performance I prefer to keep talking about performance so I'm more interested in dids, coulds, hads and wases.

I'm sorry, it wasn't meant to be rude. I thought I've read your post carefully and I got impression that you're hand waving, not reporting. If I was wrong, I apologize.

I have almost zero experience of WH and only couple of times I was there, was running some c3 sites in some throwaway ships, that's why I'm genuinely interested how new changes are received by people making their living from killing sleepers. But let me repeat, since those changes hit SiSi, all I'm interested in are field reports, not attribute analysis.

My overreaction might have come from my sensitivity to stats vs. performance discussion. It was my eagerness, not disrespect.

Please don't forget to drop a note how it went. :)

125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!?

Only this is not correct. You could field 5 sentry drones on at least the vargur and kronos, and their raw dmg would not exceed the pirate alternatives.

Just plug the numbers on EFT! It already has both marauders type son it.

The ship got slow enough !


Stop with your " I felt nothign wrong".. numbers.. numbers do not lie!!! The base speed was hugely nerfed and the decrease in mass is nowhere near 20%

Tried in Paladin in a C5, but I did not had a slave set.

YEt, they a re still not there at the level they woudl need to be to risk them on a C5. As I said they woudl need to have another 1k, 1200k n their tanking layers.

You should double check this, don't have access to EFT atm or I would post numbers. Ensure implants, ammo, dmg upgrades, guns, and skills are the same. Make sure u add drones to the mach as well as the vargur. As to your comment on slots. Shield mach gets options for more ddas which fits the theme of the mach having more dmg while the vargur has better tracking

Ah I thought you were saying the vargur was out dmging the mach by 40 pts, but its the other way around.

So 5 sentry does doesn't surpass the max dmg. Let's take the discussion a bit further. Not knowing ur fit or having access to EFT, I would imagine the 40 dmg difference is around a 4-5% dmg difference. I would also estimate that the difference in gun dmg alone is around 9.5% in favor of the mach. The mach then can take advantage of using its mobility to deal more damage, and given the number of lows can makes its raw drone dmg superior. Drone dmg via sentry can also be reduced by killing the drones and is more situational.

Overall the mach can still top out higher than the vargur if it want to via the number of lows. The mach gains substantially more mobility and turret dps as well. Completely outclassed? Really?

Sentry drones would also play well with the optional highs and stationary playstyle

[quote=hmskrecik]
MATH is the only truth in universe!! If you cannot comprehend that you shoudl not be in a balance thread on a ship of excel online!

Anize, I think you're not quite right here.

The problem is that stacked bastion does not add much to range. With 2xTE + 1xTC I used to fly with we're talking about 65km vs. maybe 70km of optimal+falloff.

Actual improvement of damage application I see in such situation is that when bastion is activated and I already have a ton of range bonus, I can unscript TC or script it for tracking but its effect is harder to measure.

The new Marauder class. It's a PVE ship, but with PVP capability from what I can see...Wouldn't know what to tell you if you asked me how to fly it. Have to see it in operation I guess first.

Fuel troubles me if your a mission runner with it. I hated buying cap charges and ammo for different damage types...now people want me to carry fuel too...might just fly a BS then. (Cheaper too). Trying to avoid hassles while doing missions, just one more thing to run out of.

The other thing is the skills it takes to fly it. Don't get me wrong, it's a great ship. But takes forever to train for. On top of that, it is very expensive. Any ship can be lost, but there are more cost effective alternatives then those beasts. Faction BS while the same price nearly, is way easier to train. T1 BS's might be rather sub-standard, but are like a 5th of the price, and can do the job for most missions or anoms. If your really strapped for cash can do decent sniping in a tier 3 BC. and T3 while all-in-one ships, are easy to train, yet on the costly side. The price of versatility.

I like the marauder, lots of nice work went into it. I would never PVP in something that shiney. Incursions you cannot do in it, maybe VG, but you'd be laughed out of a AS or HQ site fleet. For me, will be a ship I bring out on special occasions and parades....maybe run the odd high sec mission in it. I can't risk that kind of money out in null alone to do a scan site or anom. I would get hot-dropped to easily, and I would be shedding tears for days.

From an engineering perspective? Nice work CCP, flagship of the sub-caps! Deadly, I am sure, in the hands of a pilot who knows how to fly it! Perfectly balanced too I believe, enough, but not too much.

A comment to the same effect I made several pages back. If you fly new Marauder like you used to fly old Marauder, the bastion module is not needed.

The trick is to monetize on new bonuses, MJD for mobility and bastion for lighter tanking.

I have a question for CCP devs regarding the current thinking on Bastion skills. When will we be able to confirm if it will be High Energy Physics 4 (if at all)?

Honestly, if Marauders are now being balanced around Bastion, I would suggest that Bastion not use an arbitrary science skill as it's pre-req. All this does is add yet another skill to the already lengthy skill pre-reqs for Marauders. You've already added another one in the form of MJD operation, but at least that's usable in any BS class ship. It would be much better if Bastion's skill pre-req was one of the existing pre-reqs for Marauders.

If Bastion was optional I'd be ok with something like High Energy Physics, but right now it's going against the policy of "you can fly whatever you can before the rebalance". Technically yes you can undock in a Bastion-less Marauder but the entire way the rebalance has been structured has been pretty biased towards the use of Bastion.

It's just one skill and not really a big deal, but there isn't any reason at all to add yet another skill pre-req either. I mean Hull Upgrades V would probably make more sense.

im sure you are enough smart to notice underlined parts is the cost of 125/125 drone bay - bandwidth.. anyway, it may be caused my bad speaking..

it is just a raw idea for sentry lovers, tbh, it is still better than asking for speed to hull which it is useless(and ridiculous) with bastion.. or better than comparing 3b-4b worth machariel fitting vs t2 fitting vargur..

Found 2 bugs in the paladin for current sisi version.

When your tractoring in wrecks, the green 'beam' is crunched up into the ships hull, and does not reach out to the wreck.

When you deactivate bastion, the sound effect plays twice.

One more nail in the Golem coffin.

if its so clear then say it shouldnt be that hard to explain. what i observe is what it is. i dont use formulas im sorry

Because the RNI will be able to utilize RHMLs to run circles around the Golem in L4s.

No, I simply choose to ignore it... The vast majority of Golem owners have invested in the time and training for PvE, and this seriously curtails it's ability against cruisers and frigates. So that means running rigors instead of field extenders to even approach the base damage application of a cruise missile-outfitted RNI. You know, on those L4 missions that feature numerous cruiser/battlecruiser class NPCs. The only thing melodramatic here are your replies. Go back on your meds or get them to increase the dosage...

No, I simply choose to ignore it...

Hmm.. Anize has still not posted TQ mission numbers.

wonder why that is.

TQ vargur can already run C3 and C4 without serious problems. solo
For c4 a rr pair is better though.

Btw, using links =/= solo

How can one like the new better then the old if one has never experienced the old?
you used three missions as your examples but have a stated tq time for only one. and one you have admitted to have never run on tq.

Its ok though, Its too late for CCP to want to revise it, bastion is was and still is a terrible idea.

My position on the uselessness of the Bastion module is well-documented.

That being said, remember how CCP bent over backwards to ensure that anyone who could fly a command ship prior to the CS overhaul could fly one after?

Seems like CCP figures that even though they and their fanbois are trumpeting the Bastion module as pretty much mandatory to fly the hull class properly post Nov 19th, here we are, where every current Marauder pilot is facing 4-7 days new training, depending on their attribute distribution.

Yeah, that is totally fair, especially when compared to the command ship skill overhaul.
Players can go their entire pilot career avoiding industrial skills, but now if you want to fly a class of ships properly, you have to learn possibly 2 new industrial skills.

You like the playstyle of marauders with new bonuses, yet found sniper/sentry drone dominix playstyle very boring. These are contrast ideas to each other.
You can do the same and/or better in Scarlett without going into bastion mode at all. The problem lies in exactly here. There is no point in all of these bonuses or ship changes for mobile playstyle.

Some guys say "there is too little nerf you can tell", but wtf is new for me then? I've waited for my Vargur's weaknesses to be adressed for a long time and all I get is a mobility nerf with a "become a good sentry gun" bonus. Vargur doesn't need any of these bonuses in order to do PvE better. In Rubicon, there is simply nothing neither new, nor interesting for mobile playstyle in PVE.

That is all I want to say about it.

How does the fitting of the tq marauder you used compare to the fittings of the sisi version you used? EFT numbers would give an idea of where you were on tank (omni and specific) weapon (dsp , tracking range) and mobility (ab, mwd or mjd?) it all attests to your ship handling competence and mission ability. as the correct fit is everything.

I did not mention C5. Solo =/= +links in my statement refers to the TQ vargur in c3-4 of the previous statement.
Also "solo" continues to not equal with links, you mean "alone in the site with links." which you have already state is different then solo in post #7107 (which was posted in reference to c5 though i had no statement about c5)

actually their utility in c1-4 will be of lower value because of the lack of escape and logistics options. when in bastion mode.
Transients in linked wh will have much more time to find and warp to bastioned marauders and find reinforcements to come kill said marauders with competing wh groups at a much higher advantage then previously because they bring both logistics and cap warfare which is the glaring weakness of marauders in bastion.

Are you kidding with me? Seriously! Why the hell do you think I trained for a Marauder? Please read my past posts in this thread. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

Vargur + speed nerf + Bastion/MJD is the EVE version of Radon toothpaste.

Might seem like a good idea at first, but the moment you finally understand... still waiting for you to understand.

Now.. check the difference for peopel that used only the MJD (on some missiosn you did that)... and suddenly that gate taht was 8 km away is even more infuriating.

And if that speeds doe snto make so much difference as you claim, WHY NERF IT? Specially sicne the vargeur is the marauder that gets the LEAST form the bastion module ?

You mena makign all of them behaving almost exaclty the same?


Pff I have exchanged my remaining marauders for pirate battleships this weekend. BAstion module is a HORRIBLE concept. THe mJD bonus is nice, but the bastion is incredbly mehhhh (specially for vargur).

You are incredbly naive or just try to be irritating don you?

The only way to use the new marauders is EXACLTY the same among all 4, but the vargur will become the least bennefitted. SAme WAY is not same thing as SAME POWER.

Too hard for you to grasp simple concepts? Now STOP TROLLING!

A specific dev who shall remain nameless insisted to me that the range boost is fine because the Kronos gets great range with Null. 'Tis a pity that not everyone can use Null.

Maybe I'll strap some pulse lasers onto my Vargur. That should work.. right?

I really hope, you were trolling and not being serious. Obviously he meant that he can't fit blasters on his Vargur, therefore the dev's point is moot..

You have to be kidding me - you WERE serious.



Setup please.

That's 78.5km falloff, 4.8km optimal. You are wrong.

Edit: put out some flames :)

Way to miss the point. Falloff is not optimal.

T3s can now refit on the fly with the mobile depot. Marauders are now somewhat obsolete.

Yes (that was the change), yes (all of them can do in excess of 1000 dps; more overheated), yes (with the new loot module) and yes (although really the Noctis is better geared towards this). You've obviously never flown any T3...

I'd love to see that quote.


POS, Orca - anything that acts as a fitting station apparently (at least according to CCP).

Hahahahahahaha! (-^.O-) (Evil maniac laugh with evil look)

Chaos, we are loosing this battle mate. But, anyway, I don't feel bad for this, because I fought pretty well and long enough with my ideas, with my support to mobile play, with my anti-support to mael-domi breed.

Our ideas have no more shield left. They have no more armor left. While hull is getting lowered to last bit of it, along with ringing alarms everywhere, a nice glimpse in my face turns into enjoyment of loosing a billions-of-worth-hull, with an experienced emotion on my face, knowing that opposition thinks that they guaranteed a nice kill, without knowing that I've already aligned and half of my cap still left for overheated boosting and turning situation upside down.

They'll never, ever be able to experience this anymore after 19th with their stunning marauders, they'll forget what shield alarm is, what armor alarm is, what HULL alarm is, with all content laying dead 50-100km ahead of them. All things come down to the numbers, forgetting the gameplay they want has already been exists in game for years with other ships. Immersion is lost a little bit more, and all come down to numbers and staying away from enemy, exchanging another slot for more tracking and killing fast, 100km ahead. Yet, forgetting Marauders were meant to be a close-range and people who have been happy with them trained them to enjoy close-range warfare. (Maybe golem could be an exception)

Arguing to adapt to long-range play from now on, which is out of question for already-available-playstyle of Marauders, will leave close-range players like me to train for another **** that is waiting to get nerfed in the future, yet throwing hundreds of hours of training to go into the garbage.

No, they don't understand this, they won't understand it. All they care is hitting objects 100km ahead, while won't caring about stuff nearby, they can jump another 100km to open the gap anyway. Less worries, less risk, easier gameplay...

snipped to save space.

I noticed you changed your rigs. There may be hope for you yet xD! At anyrate, i assume you posted the fit cause you'd like some review so here are a few things to consider,

= RF gyros =
Granted you may not wanna change all four, but at least 3 (the difference in benefit between RF and T2 by the fourth is small due to stacking penalties). I know you're on sisi atm and may not have access, but it is really something to consider. Changing all gyros to RF is around a 4.3% increase to DPS with your fit but it has another benefit as u'll see:

= Changing Collision II to Burst II =
On a bare bones T2 fit before implants your dps will increase less than 1% (~0.81%), kinda meh, but it doesnt scale the way you might think. For example, lets say you move to RF gyros, the difference between the Collision II and Burst II is now ~2.73%.
Just a secondary perk of this change: i dont really have hard numbers for it, it will depend on your skills and implants as well, but this should help prevent overkill. my AC and all related gunnery skills are maxed. Lightly tanked cruisers are 1 shot and normal cruisers are 2 shot most of the time. frigs are normally killed in less than a full volley. As to the weight of total dmg increase due to a decrease in overkill... I have no idea and it would depend on the mission.

= More =
SS tracking comps (1.7% dmg inc @ 40km if all changed, but 2 SS TCs -> 3 T2 TC (~2.6%) (compared with current fit)

drop a tracking comp for another prop (yeah, ull lose out on 2.6% @40KM, but moving ~2KM closer will inc dmg by ~2.85% on your current fit and of course that 2.85% will continue to increase the closer you get + most missions dont really need a mjd, so if you wanted to you could add the tc back when you dont need to jump. Most missions you dont need to jump anyway.)

avoid using bastion to make use of mobility

I know you disagree with me about the latter 2 points, but im hopeful after seeing you make the rig change, so imma make this attempt! If you like some of these suggestions and decide to modify your fit, I have a hunch you will start to... well, maybe not agree with me, but see and understand my point of view on these vargur changes xD.

just wanted to highlight that....

I am guessing that times are with salvaging included because they are terrible,in say blockade you are stuck there 2x times and some change longer than needed and that is with ship that have range bonus and e-war immune,not to mention over tanked by default.

if you want to compare ships than you need to show comparison in combat performance only because salvaging is not marauder specific one can easily use noctis or simply not salvage at all and turn it in and get another blockade from another agent in same station and pull double mission revard and earn 2x lp than you in same amount of time and basically had better isk/h ratio than you.

I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong nor do I care but it doesn't make it right either.

Combat ships measured with combat performance...gizmos aside.

sry this is stupid lp are a very major part of isk/h income esp. when max skilled....

if you try to imply you cant transfer lp to isk your wrong...

buy items and sell em...

I didn't said gizmo for bastion I said it for salvage


in case you didn't notice ....

You don't translate to same as me

And some does not translate to everybody

what you do and can't do or is hard is your perspective,and it doesn't translate to everybody else,I can comment on you salvage operations because that to is situational and mission specific ie gizmo....

If you want comparison do combat comparison in between marauders and or rest of high end ships in one thing that all do..shooting stuff.

If you did salvage while you shoot what exactly did you do in mission for over half and hour I don't know.

its about beeing efficient.

if a mission is more worth "blitzed" than not it is too in a marauder.

some missions are best farmed if you shoot and salvage only the valuable bs and blitz the rest.
this is where marauders shine if you shoot all the things and salvage all the thing youd better have an alt with a noctis .

so theres why it concerns marauders.

ps.: what i get depends what its offerd, what sells best and what has the best lp to isk ratio.... so no simple answer here

if somebody has an awnser to tractorunit pullable? that would be great

quick summary, my general process goes something like: EFT crunch -> live testing -> re-examine via ETF

added the word "live" for context

The main reason is that it is harder to prove:
* I cant ensure the environments are similar between servers (warp speed changes, spawn locations, warpin locationd, etc)
* The tests require different roles, I cant prove that my performance was equally up to par in both roles. ppl will believe what they want to believe. ppl who support bastion staying the same can say I just didnt use bastion correctly, or challenge me with a faster clear time that never actually occurred.
* I cant run enough tests to get a decent average to mitigate variable influence
* On the other hand, I can very easily prove that like: ~4KM of movement renders bastion projection obsolete.
* The numbers are difficult properly display their significance properly.
If I say: "Ship A needs a 10% [fill in the blank] increase" the thread goes crazy because the number is concrete.
If CCP says "Ship A needs a 10% [fill in the blank] decrease" the thread goes crazy b/c the number is concrete.
If I say: "Ship A completion: 10 mins, ship B completion: 9 mins" no one cares
If I say: "Ship A completion: 20 mins, ship B completion: 18 mins" no one cares
For all anyone knows it could be variables I cant control.
In all of these circumstances (save a few select stats), the difference is 10%.




As indicated above, I wont do that. With the randomness and uncontrolled variables of this game it is very difficult to prove X difference in completion time was directly attributed to factor Y, esp when there are not solid averages to draw from. We are probably (before additional warp ~time on gates, including the use of bastion vs non bastion, not factoring heavy ewar missions) within 5% - 15% differences in missions completion times ( 3 - 9 mins every hour).

Things I can prove:
* Mobile > Bastion's projection
* Dual prop > single MJD + 3rd TC
* Bastion needed for dual prop
* The rebalance is occuring b/c of power creep
* Marauders were promised the ability to project dmg better than pirates
* At various AC ranges, benefits of damage at range via bastion < Machariel's turret DPS lead (not to mention the further you get out the less tracking matters) (on realistic loadouts mach can lead til around 50KM, and Vargur gains ~13dps over the mach by around 70KM.. This is before taking the mach's drone advantage into account)
* marauders fall victim to power creep due to looting structures in pve

If its nto that world changign why not KEEP its speed? So that the vargur is not the NERFED ship?

I should reiterate for clarity. It difference wasn't simply speed, it was the difference between typical tq, and a bastion sisi fit. This wasn't a comparison between sisi running the same strategy as tq, I don't have numbers for that, but if those numbers are correct, bastion should be avoided on the vargur when possible.

I can prove that the vargur did not get the projection it was promised, and the projection it received is pointless. According to the goals listed in the rebalance, the vargur is supposed to be able to project dmg better than the mach, which hasn't occurred. Instead, the offense gap has been widened. A major point of the rebalance was to make the ship more appealing. Less dps, less mobility, poor RR compatibility, the same terrible sensor strength, and various bastion penalties does not accomplish this.

This is can resolution.. nto sensor strenght. Really if you do not know that.. how can we take your posts as serious?

I dont think you get it.. Vargur got zero buffs. BAStion is NEGATIVE on it . The MJD thing is cool, but is INFERIOR to old vargur speedy movment when you run L4 to make real isk real fast.


I repeat.. vargur got ZERO buffs!! Using bastion mode is detrimental to anyoen that knew how to use the ship.

let me go 1 by 1

- Reduced mass - More than coutnered by speed reduction
- Improved inertia modifier (I think) - aligns a bit better because of mass. Effectively not usable because speed reduction takes you more than that.

- Improved shield capacity - Almost irrelevant, as I said vargur can already shug any damage incommign from any level 4 as if it was a joke

- Improved capacitor capacity- since the only things using capacitor were the tank (That was already overpowered for its usage) and the prop mod.. that now is less useful and you need to run it for longer time, effectively makign you use MORE cap during the mission

- Improved targeting range - You mean you can now lock stuff way outside any possible engagement range of your AC? Imrpessively useful

- Improved Scan res - Ok this is a boost, small sicne marauders can already lock so many targets taht you have a queue of targets that never empties... so it can save you 2 seconds at start of mission

- Improved sig radius - Again, vargur coudl already ignore a level 4 damage level!!!

- Extra high slot - to fit what? the useles bastion mode? yet ANOTHER tractor bem? LOL
-
Almost double PG - the first 5% are useful, the rest is overkil lsince no one will use arties. So is a joke in fact.

- Decreased MJD activation time - As I sated this is the only real bonus the ship got.. And its almost useles since the old vargur used MWD AND AB on the best way to run missions.

When do we get T-2 bastion module ?

As we have T-2 Siege and T-2 Triage modules it would be fair to get T-2 Bastion module as well.

I would love to take your word for that, but you posted earlier in this thread such terrible mission completion times (with which you seemed to be content with), that objectively your assessment of the situation isn't worth much.

I am sorry, but when

1. some ships can take full advantage of bastion mode and some can't
2. some ships are affected by the speed nerf and some aren't
3. some ships get actual boosts that matter while others don't

then there something has to be wrong.

See, it's not 'just "torp golem" or "slow vargur" things'. The issues go way deeper than that. You can't redesign a ship class around a concept that only benefits one (maybe 2).

My mission completion times for the missions I do from your list (Gone Berserk, AE, Worlds Collide (Angel)) are HALF of your posted times on TQ(seriously). In high sec my LP rewards are 18-36% higher than yours. I don't record loot&salvage, as I feel it is a waste of time. I would rather just do more missions instead.

Anyone can tell you, that your times are not good (to put it mildly). Therefore you telling us that everything will be fine, has to be taken with a grain of salt. Sorry.

Nonetheless I appreciate the time you put into recording all that data. It was quite helpful, just not the way you imagined it would be. (Now I know for sure that immobile Vargurs are terrible.)

I mostly think that they would be way to situational to have any significant impact. Using them is more bothersome than refitting in stations, so (EDIT) refitting at stations between missions would be preferred. Sure, in some missions it may make sense to drop let's say a TC for an MJD for a room, and then swap it back, but I am not sure it is really worth the hassle. Most missions are just too short for that.

Also I want to point 3 things out:

1. Any ship will be able to use the new structures. Meaning the Mach will get significantly better, while the Vargur will stay roughly the same.
2. Some marauders get much more out of the marauder changes than others.
EDIT: 3. You can't use mobile depots while MWDing. Stationary ships get more out of them. Am I the only one who sees a pattern here?

I for one remain soundly in the "Homgenization is bad, unless it's milk" camp.

I do enjoy homogenized milk.

"3" invalidates "1" am i wrong? prolly i couldnt get things right..
machariel vs vargur, isnt it a joke? fitting a ship glass-cannon doesnt mean OverPower.. and also machariel is an option for who doesnt like "new" stationary style combat..

This is already possible.

Bravo Debora! That has always been my question of why people keep calling them mini-dreads but not mini-rorquals.

I kindly ask you what will happen;

1- When you engage bastion mode and
2- When you engage siege mode

I have always wondered why they put some sort of rainbow patterns in IQ tests and ask for correct answer that matches the original pattern. They don't look the same but normal people keep finding correct answer... If you get what I mean.

Generally when I got stuck in my limited English vocabulary, somebody who understands what the hell has happened jumps out from the crowd and explains things in a neat way. This proved to be correct with explaining the relationship of "raiding" and "speed" in one of the past pages.

Let me explain in another way;

If you look at eve wiki, siege module's explanation is nearly as same as bastion's. It is for sure that bastion module is inspired from siege module.

When you engage bastion, you get 100 percent same penalties with siege modules.
When you engage bastion, you won't get 100 percent same benefits as you get with siege modules.

Design team tried to find more fitting bonuses for BS class hulls. However, not being able to get RR, they are very pity against concentrated fire. CCP exactly wants this, they want Marauders die in a fleet combat when they're primaried. What they forgot is the price/performance ratio.

How much time it take for a dread in siege mode to die in a concencrated capital fire (except doomsday)? I know this is very relative to combat, but there is an idea. Let's say that other dreads giving the most damage to them, which are their price equavalent.

So the basic thinking is if let's say 10 non-siege dreads are shooting one siege dread, it is 10 isk shooting at 1 isk.
If 10 BS' shooting at 1 marauder, it is 10 isk shooting at ~10 isk. But CCP's flaw here is that they want Marauders to go down fast! Just for this price/effectiveness ratio, I find their idea as flawed.

The problem is, these marauders are not dreads exactly, but penaltized in the same way as them when engaged into their specialized role, while having much lesser EHP than dreads in order to withstand BS fire.

So, in short.

Lasers are bad because angels and Guristas exsist. good reasoning.

And you can perfectly fine "EFT" damage when you know how well they track and what ranges they can do this hurting at. and what mobility your ship has.

Some of you people have absolutely garbage "excuses".

And I've tested both of them just to back up my "LOL EFT WARRIOR" comments.

High bounty Sansha and Blood already cut your EFT damage by over half in a Palaidin, Are you clueless or just terrible at math?

To an angel Seraphim(Highest bounty Angel BS) it'd do 288.41 DPS (1146 dps before resists) and 391.55 to an Angel Commander(Lowest bounty angel BS)

That's 25.1666(repeating)% of EFT dps to the Seraphim and 34.1666(repeating)% of EFT dps to the commander, half is 50%, not 25.16% or 34.16%.

To a Sansha's Tyrant(Top bounty Sansha BS) it'd do 546.91 dps which is 47.72338568935428% of EFT damage, this is already less than half ? how terrible at math are you?

Also, Kronos also sucks vs Angels(Not as bad as the paladin, but with so much lower dps it's actually not that huge of a difference), and it's worse vs drones and pretty even vs mercs compared to the Paladin.

Since all the nerf salvaging and looting is worth barelly a couple million per mission. Much better to use the fittings for something better.

We are so looking forward to finding these solo wormhole maraduers. Oh the tears...

As I said, my view was not about WH, I am at least capable of addressing a statement as a minimally brain capable human. You on other hand must make a ******** statement that is on goon level of wisdom.

So I am forced to reply.. grand news.. WH population is a TINY fraction of 0.0 and low sec combined!!!